ChrisSunami said:
[quote]But I suspect this ‘intrapersonal’ aspect to human consciousness to be a key part of what the majority of people regard as the influence of God, spirits, or the Devil in our personal lives. [/quote]I would say the the fight against the Devil is almost always the fight against the self.
[[[“Almost always…” When is it not ? ]]]]
But the relationship with God is only a relationship with one’s self in as much as each person’s most true self originates with God.
[[[[You as a theist and me as an atheist could be talking about essentially the same thing.]]]
I think it’s a fine and a necessary thing to have a good relationship with all your sub-selves. But the relationship with God is of infinite more value.
[[[Perhaps, we should agree to disagree, because we’re now going around in circles on this point. You say it’s God. I suggest it’s a part of your own subconscious mind. Collaborating with folk on helping to bring more love into the world is my (stated) aim, not necessarily changing or ‘winning’ someone’s heart and mind. ]]]]
[quote]I’m framing it as striving to meet my needs thru better relations among humans and between humans and other life forms. [/quote]
Let me put it to you this way. The program I run at my church has, for eight years, provided free voice and instrumental lessons to inner city youth and adults. The parent program of the church, the United Methodist Free Store, every year gives away 2 million dollars worth of free clothing and household goods to people in the community. The church also provides meals weekly, runs a free clinic and a free pharmacy, and rehabilitates low-cost housing. One of our church members runs a program in the state prisons that has reduced the recidivism rate among participants from 65% to 11%.
[[[I want more of this type of experience, collaborating with theists and atheists. This reminds me of what a guy calling himself Flaming Fundamentalist told me in Oct of 2011 http://lovecause.org/to-build-a-mass-movement-we-got-to-care-more-and-be-uncomfortable-says-flaming-fundamentalist/ and also this http://lovecause.org/do-agnostics-and-atheists-demonstrate-love-for-the-world-as-well-as-religious-folk/But regarding the achievements of your church, to what extent could they be doable if based on empathy and compassion, and not necessarily on faith in Jesus Christ and his heavenly father or any other god ?
To my knowledge, there are about 2.2 billion Christians. So of the roughly 4.8 billion non-Christians, are there no works of empathy and compassion in societies where non-Christians predominate?
Atheists comprise a small minority of people in the world. I’m open to suggestions about how we’d assess this, but are atheists involved as much as theists in helping to improve the world proportionate to our numbers ?
Also, the examples you gave regarding your church are a type of mode of acting on empathy and compassion. But there is more to it than that. For example, the vegan movement involves that ethnic, though not in the sense of ‘charity’ or ‘philanthropy’ as it’s been traditionally conceived.
I suggest atheists and theists find common cause : bringing more empathy and compassion into the world.
Conversely, you described your plan to spread love as writing a sign and standing on a street corner.
To quote St James “Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?”
[[[Thanks for taking me seriously enough to pose these challenges. But it’s both/and, not either/or; I intend to write, talk, sing and otherwise communicate about love while putting it into practice. I have been involved with various organizations such as Clintonville Community Resource Center, Columbus Coalition for the Homeless, and other groups. But, of course, I intend to do more.
Thru my community media work with WCRS and Columbus Free Press, I’ve formed ties with various progressive folk–(some more labor oriented, some more ecology-oriented and some a combo of both), and groups as well as people who describe themselves as radical left or hard left, and those identifying as anarchists. Well, anyway, after being involved with Occupy groups, I’ve been thinking that a message of love might do some good. But as I said already, words ought to connect with action, when it comes to putting love into practice.
Also, to compare notes, political agitation is part of the process of working to help improve the world. Civil disobedience and other forms of protest, if done wisely, complement the pursuits you mention above.
It’s good to provide community services, thru religious and secular organizations, and as individuals. But some of us might want to also work on the political causes of people being in need. This is not to undervalue your work. Political agitation and community service go together. There is the saying about focusing so much on pulling people out of the water that we forget to do something about those who might be pushing them off the bridge.
]]]I bring this up solely because you yourself endorsed the standard of “what good does it produce” as your reason for preferring your rational spirituality over religion.
[[[There are many standards for assessing that. Even if we assume that
We can debate at greater length about the net benefit of religion when we include how people have used it for oppression, instead of just focusing on things such as soup kitchens, programs for prisoners, and so on.
But, don’t get me wrong, what you are doing (minus the theism) is part of what I intend to be doing more of.
How does that hold up when you actually test it at the direct, immediate level?
[[[ The most direct and immediate measure is how my own faith in God (Christian periods in the late 80s and mid 90s, and Universalist in ’99) affected my relationships to others, in private and in public. By that standard, I’m more empathic and compassionate, and otherwise better functioning as an atheist.
I intend to work with theists on community goals. I don’t seem to have done as much of the type of work you and some members of your church have. But, I’ve done more of it as an atheist than I’ve done as a theist.
]]]
[quote]The ethic of empathy and compassion correlates with non-violence in many ways, but in at least some contexts, our love for others requires us to use violence. [/quote]
I think this is an extremely dangerous attitude that has produced many great evils in its time.
[[[Would you take no action if there were no other way of stopping a human or other animal from harming you or one of your family members or friends ? As for violence on a more organized level, I think many wars can be avoided, but not all of them. As it pertains to Afghanistan and Iraq (and Iran?) war profiteering, militarism, and imperialism seem to be the problem. It’d not be accurate to call myself ‘anti-war’ and I think ‘the Anti-War Movement’ is need of a better term.Few people do wrong without imagining they are doing it for the right reasons.
[[[I suggest the risk of doing wrong while thinking it’s for the right reason is lower if we, as individuals, families, communities, and societies uphold as our highest ethic love, that is, empathy and compassion, from which, in turn, flow respect, fairness, justice, and tolerance.
But as for doing wrong, I suggest we humans are more likely to continue terrorizing, torturing, and killing each other (and other species ?) in the name of God (whether as Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and so on) than we are to do so in the name of empathy and compassion, especially if we frame it within our causal understanding of how ‘this world’ works, and not notions of an afterlife, which vary from culture to culture.
One, among many, of the reasons I don’t watch TV or waste what little money I have on cinema, is that, among its other flaws, is the celebration of violence. I have a problem with the glorification of violence, which includes the glorification of domination and exploitation. Instead of being glorified, I suggest violence be seen for what it is: a mode of action to be used when we have no viable means of avoiding having to choose our own or someone else’s well-being or life over that of another person(s). ]]]]
[quote]As for the video below, I don’t have that capability on my computer.[/quote]
It’s Prince’s “7”, the most sensual pop hit ever to be based on the Bible’s Book of Revelation.
[[[[Thx, but how is that pertinent ? ]]]]
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[quote](Tom Over, Jan 11) But I suspect this ‘intrapersonal’ aspect to human consciousness to be a key part of what the majority of people regard as the influence of God, spirits, or the Devil in our personal lives.
(Chris Sunami) I would say the the fight against the Devil is almost always the fight against the self. [/quote]
When is it not ?
[quote]
(Chris Sunami) But the relationship with God is only a relationship with one’s self in as much as each person’s most true self originates with God.
[/quote]
You as a theist and me as an atheist could be talking about essentially the same thing.
[quote]
(Chris Sunami) I think it’s a fine and a necessary thing to have a good relationship with all your sub-selves. But the relationship with God is of infinite more value.
[/quote]
Perhaps, we should agree to disagree, because we’re now going around in circles on this point. You say it’s God. I suggest it’s a part of your own subconscious mind. Collaborating with folk on helping to bring more love into the world is my (stated) aim, not necessarily changing or ‘winning’ someone’s heart and mind.
[quote](Tom Over Jan 11 ) I’m framing it as striving to meet my needs thru better relations among humans and between humans and other life forms.
(Chris Sunami) Let me put it to you this way. The program I run at my church has, for eight years, provided free voice and instrumental lessons to inner city youth and adults. The parent program of the church, the United Methodist Free Store, every year gives away 2 million dollars worth of free clothing and household goods to people in the community. The church also provides meals weekly, runs a free clinic and a free pharmacy, and rehabilitates low-cost housing. One of our church members runs a program in the state prisons that has reduced the recidivism rate among participants from 65% to 11%.
[/quote]
But regarding the achievements of your church, to what extent could they be doable if based on empathy and compassion, and not necessarily on faith in Jesus Christ and his heavenly father or any other god ?
To my knowledge, there are about 2.2 billion Christians. So of the roughly 4.8 billion non-Christians, are there no works of empathy and compassion in societies where non-Christians predominate?
Atheists comprise a small minority of people in the world. I’m open to suggestions about how we’d assess this, but are atheists involved as much as theists in helping to improve the world proportionate to our numbers ?
Also, the examples you gave regarding your church are a type of mode of acting on empathy and compassion. But there is more to it than that. For example, the vegan movement involves that ethnic, though not in the sense of ‘charity’ or ‘philanthropy’ as it’s been traditionally conceived.
I suggest atheists and theists find common cause : bringing more empathy and compassion into the world.
This part of our conversation reminds me of the following. [url=http://lovecause.org/to-build-a-mass-movement-we-got-to-care-more-and-be-uncomfortable-says-flaming-fundamentalist/]We got to care more and be uncomfortable, says ‘flaming fundamentalist'[/url] and [url=http://lovecause.org/do-agnostics-and-atheists-demonstrate-love-for-the-world-as-well-as-religious-folk/]Do atheists demonstrate love for the world as effectively as religious folk ? [/url]
Conversely, you described your plan to spread love as writing a sign and standing on a street corner.
To quote St James “Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?”
I bring this up solely because you yourself endorsed the standard of “what good does it produce” as your reason for preferring your rational spirituality over religion. How does that hold up when you actually test it at the direct, immediate level?
[quote]The ethic of empathy and compassion correlates with non-violence in many ways, but in at least some contexts, our love for others requires us to use violence. [/quote]
I think this is an extremely dangerous attitude that has produced many great evils in its time. Few people do wrong without imagining they are doing it for the right reasons.
[quote]As for the video below, I don’t have that capability on my computer.[/quote]
It’s Prince’s “7”, the most sensual pop hit ever to be based on the Bible’s Book of Revelation.
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