From the Facebook thread linked above, this is from a person named Bob Calvin:
” 1. As a Christian I will speak as the Christian worldview of orthodox Christianity. We hold to “Sola Scriptura” which means the Bible is our sole inspired infallible rule of our faith.
Biblically speaking there is no such thing as an atheist or an agnostic. We are told in Romans 1 that all men know God in their hearts. And God’s moral laws are written on our hearts. And you are without excuse. Because you know this God and reject Him in your unrighteous living. There are only 2 kinds of people in this world believers ( those who follow the Triune God of the scriptures) and unbelievers.
So you being an unbeliever have rejected the true God you know in your heart and you are without excuse. You don’t go to hell for not knowing God. You go to hell for the God you know and have sinned against. God sent His Son to be a substitute for our sins against a Holy, Righteous God. You can pay for your sins, or Jesus Christ can pay for your sins. You need to repent of your sins ,bow the knee to Jesus Christ and follow Him..Then my friend you will be at peace and eternal life.
As far as morality goes only the Christian worldview can account for absolute morals. You atheistic worldview can not account for absolute truth, morality, reason , logic, human ethics, science, or epistemology.
I will deal with your second comment about the person of Jesus Christ. And the Inspiration and transmission of the New Testament. After you reply to my comments on your first paragraph.
Nice talking with you. And i mean no personal insults to you regarding the unbeliever hating the God of scripture. I am just paraphrasing lots of verses so I do not have to carpet bomb you with scripture.”
****The other person’s comments are in bold ****
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn’t what you said about your perspective on compassion synonymous? Believing equals understanding. <<<<i’m aware of the idea, within faith traditions and maybe also within some secular ideologies, that first one must believe; and that after doing so, he or she sees the world in a new light, and thereby has all the ‘evidence’ he or she will ever need to continue believing. —— I experienced some of this perspective as a believer in Christ when I was 19, and thought that God had chosen me for a some sort of difficult, world-renouncing and self-abnegating purpose.— I later experienced the believe-first-then-you-will-see-the-evidence mentality again as a “born again Christian” when I was about 26. —–Further, I experienced it again when I was 31, as a universalist, praying to a supreme being to help me serve her or his or its will, without thinking it was necessarily a Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, or any other type of god.—- Even now, as an atheist, I can still get into that believing state of mind, even though I deem it’s highly unlikely that a supreme being is taking a personal interest in my life. ——Further, I can still get into the same frame of mind that I did when I was praying, even though I no longer allow myself the indulgence of believing in that for which there seems no evidence. >>>>
Desire equals determination. <<<< This is semantic. As such, I don’t agree that ‘desire’ is the same as or necessarily leads to determination. The former can involve inclinations that are unintentional and it often does not involve the intention to fulfill the desire; whereas the latter term, ‘determination’ denotes willfulness and resolve, which involves one’s intellect, at least to some extent. >>>>>>
In order to truly empathize (show compassion) you must first believe what the person is saying (understand them) and have a desire (determination) to understand and< believe them to the best of your ability. Does that best represent your position?
<<<< The short answer is no. Sorry. 🙂 To me, I can listen and otherwise empathize and show compassion without necessarily agreeing that what the other person believes is true.—- This reminds me of working as a community reporter for WCRS Columbus, Columbus Free Press and the Columbus Underground message boards. —- As I edited audio files of my interviews, I kept hearing myself saying “yes” and “right” when actually I often didn’t think the interviewee was right.—- So, after noticing that, I worked on saying “I’m listening” instead of saying “right” and “yes.” —–I also worked on making eye contact and smiling occasionally, but avoiding nodding my head or giving any other nonverbal cue that I was agreeing.—– But whether I should express agreement, disagreement, or partial or qualified agreement with the person I’m interacting with depends on the situation. —-You’ve mentioned empathy and compassion. In that situation, the other person’s vulnerability would probably call for an interaction that emphasizes emotional support more so than reasoned discourse. —In that situation, I can show the other person that I am listening by repeating back what they are saying and maybe asking questions with which to help clarify her or his focus on possible solutions.—- My guess is that emotional support for people in distress involves the listener reflecting back what the person is feeling and thinking. —-That’s a service that the listener or helper offers, because the sufferer’s intense emotional pain can impede her or his ability to have a clear sense of how to proceed. —-So, the compassionate listener or helper aids the sufferer in that the sufferer hears the helper express clearly the feelings and thoughts that he or she is too much in pain to express to herself or himself. —-But in these situations, the helper and the sufferer usually aren’t debating about the nature of reality. —-Instead the helper is (1) getting an accurate sense of what the sufferer is feeling and thinking and (2) expressing that information back to the sufferer because the sufferer is too distressed to ‘hear’ or understand, in that moment of pain, her or his feelings and thoughts.——To offer this form of compassionate listening, the helper has to believe what the sufferer is thinking and feeling is actually occurring in the sufferer’s mind. —–But that’s not the same as the helper believing that what the sufferer believes is necessarily true.— What is true is that the sufferer thinks and believes it. That’s the subjective reality. —– But that doesn’t necessarily mean that what the sufferer believes about the world or her or his situation is true. The latter is the objective reality, which humanity most closely approximates thru science and other aspects of rationalism.>>>>>>
If it is, I feel like we stand in agreement, with one notable exception; to arrive at the goal of compassion I must place my understanding and believe not entirely in myself, but in my Creator God who understands and believes in me.
<<<<thanks, this is fascinating. Other believers in a supreme being have told me this. One guy told me this at the food co op in Clintonville a few months ago as we started talking regarding my trailer sign or maybe the message on my shirt. —-Another person told me this on the Columbus Underground messageboard thread “Reason and Science-based spirituality.” —– In the case of the latter, his name is Chris Sunami, who has written Heroes For Christ and other books.—– He’s based in Columbus and does various forms of faith-based community service, last I checked. —But as for one’s love for God enabling one’s love for conscious beings, maybe it depends on one’s personality. —— For me, I grew up Catholic and read the Bible and prayed obsessively as a child and as a teen, even though I was conflicted about it, and often professed atheism. It’s complicated 🙂 —– I’ve done quite a bit of praying in my life, and not the selfish sort, but the sort of praying that asks a supreme being to make my life an instrument for the fulfillment of its will. —-I’ve sincerely been ‘saved’ on one, maybe two occasions. —-I’ve returned to various forms of seeking a ‘relationship with God ‘ thru out my life. —-But thru it all, what seems my most honest and rigorous sense of reality involves me deeming that I’m somehow a more loving person without the habits of religion, including the indulgence of believing when there is no evidence.>>>>>>
I must have a determination and desire to love Him above all else; not because I have to, but in order to show compassion to others, since God showed compassion towards me. <<<<>>>>
This type of understanding goes beyond human intellect and reasoning;
<<<<< Our rational faculties are only part of the mental functioning of humans. The emotional, instinctual and intuitive faculties are key to our survival and well-being. —– These non-rational aspects of our faculties might be more well-established in human behavior than our intellectual ones, based on what the archeological evidence might tell us about pre-history, going back a couple hundred thousand years or more. —-As Daniel C Dennet and other writers suggest, the non-rational faculties are more established, and that is why scientific, objective-evidence-based modes of collective human self-understanding are making such slow progress against the more established habits associated with mythology, religion, and other forms of superstition. We can have technologically advanced societies such as ours, where our well-being depends on complex systems of scientific knowledge, yet the majority of folk in these societies believe a supreme being takes an interest in human affairs, to the point of some of us going to eternal torment when we die —But on a personal note which might be applicable to other people, I try to distinguish what is ‘non-rational’ from what is ‘irrational.’ —-Life probably wouldn’t be worth living without, and I probably wouldn’t seem human without, my emotions, my instincts, and my intuition which are part of my non-rational faculties. —-I utilize and enjoy those faculties thru such activities as playing my guitar or playing percussion, creating visual art, and countless other modes of non-rational communication and understanding. —But what is ‘irrational’ instead of being just ‘non-rational’ is when I invest myself cognitively and emotionally into unsubstantiated claims about the nature of reality–ie a supreme being created the universe; a supreme being sent his son to suffer and die so that it somehow absolves us of ‘sin,’ so long as we believe, my astrological sign is cancer and therefore I’m unable to let go emotionally…etc.—–>>>>>>
I believe it is the basis for which we were put here on this earth.
<<
*****Beginning of another message from the same person. In this format, his remarks are first, and my remarks in response follow. ****
Beginning of his remarks :
I visited this link. (charterforcompassion.org) The problem, is that the website assumes that ALL religious dogma is both cruel and oppressive. I would be interested in seeing some citation to prove
this accurate. I think the end goal of compassion is commendable. But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water (or throw God out in addition to religion when religion itself is the problem and not God). Thoughts?
GOOD NEWS EVERYONE…
HUMAN DEATH HAS BEEN CONQUERED FOREVER!!
We all have to die someday, including you, and after reading this you will know what happens when you die. The Bible has been proven true and factual by historical, archeological, internal, and external evidence and as a result, the conclusion that God is REAL is also true!! Because God is real, God’s love for you is also real, and He wants YOU to experience His immense love all for yourself. In addition He also offers you everlasting life with joy, peace, and happiness with Him in heaven. Isn’t that good news??
One problem: your sins have separated you from God. The result of sin is death, which is everlasting suffering, pain, and separation from God in hell. Many people have tried fixing this sin problem themselves by claiming that their own good actions will be enough to earn God’s favor and/or claim a spot in heaven (i.e. by reading the
Bible, attending church regularly, giving money, living a good life, getting baptized, helping an old lady across the street etc.) While those are all good things to do, NOTHING you can do of your own ability will be good enough fix your sin problem.
One solution: thankfully, because God loves you and doesn’t want you to fix the problem yourself, 2,000 years ago He sent His Son Jesus Christ, fully God yet fully man, to settle the sin problem once and for all by dying on a cross for the sins of EVERYONE including you and me. What was bad news for Jesus becomes good news for you, me, and the whole world: now YOU can receive eternal life in heaven and forgiveness of sin by simply placing your faith and trust in Jesus Christ ALONE to save you from your sins.
Your choice: admit to God that you are a sinner, confess your sins to Him believing He will forgive them, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved from everlasting death! God wants this personal and everlasting relationship with YOU right now. You are never promised tomorrow; if you were to die tonight are you 100% sure you would go to heaven??
If you need a listening ear, prayer, a free King James Version Bible, information about other Christians to fellowship with, or have further questions or comments, feel free to contact me: joshua1611 (at) gmail (dot) com. God bless you! 🙂
***** End of his remarks. Beginning of my remarks******
Yeah, I agree, it doesn’t seem accurate to claim that ALL aspects of religious dogma are oppressive.
But as for your claim that religion is the problem (something I tend to agree with 🙂 , how can you make various other claims regarding salvation, sin, heaven, and so on without resorting to religion ?
It’s thru religion that you have the Bible. If, as you say, “religion is the problem” and “not God,” then how do you know that your understanding of a supreme being is more correct than, say, that of a Hindu, Jew or Muslim, or for that matter, more correct than that of Native Americans, Africans or Aborigines prior to their contact with Christian Europeans and/or Muslim Arabs ?
What’s written under the heading “Human Death has been conquered forever” looks religious to me 🙂
To compare notes, I don’t try to “conquer death” thru faith in a supreme being that takes a personal interest in my life. Instead, thru dedicating myself to loving others, in “this world,” I reduce, if not eliminate my fear of death. That involves me being at peace with eternity without me in it, and making the most of the short period of my existence. This does not make life meaningless and cheap. Just the opposite.
Another note on the power of dedicating my life to loving conscious beings (including myself) is that it involves being less afraid of my own suffering, and it involves suspecting that a purposeful sense of joy might be possible amid my own suffering. The reward of loving is maximal, purposeful joy in “this world, ” which is less dependent on physical and psychological comforts than we might suspect.
Thanks for helping me with a thesis-antithesis-synthesis framework on which to further build my thoughts and plans for action.
——-end of my remarks.
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