The following notes are from a thread on Facebook
Extremism is a problem, not Islam, per se. It shows how propagandized some of us are to even consider it credible to ask if Islam is a religion of violence. How many Jews did the ‘Christian nation’ of Germany kill ? How many millions of Vietnamese did the ‘Christian nation’ of the United States kill ? How many civilians did the ‘Christian nation’, the United States kill in Iraq under the ‘born-again’ leadership of George W. Bush ?
Extremists (some of whom the CIA developed) use Islam for political reasons, just as some Christians, Hindus, and other religious folk have used doctrines for hatred, intolerance and violence. It might be worth noting how some aspects of US foreign policy have undermined secular rule in the Arab world and inadvertently enabled Islamic extremism. Some theorists call this ‘blow back’.
It’s disappointing, though not surprising, that some progressives fall for the sort of propaganda with which US foreign policy is glossed over, and a religion of hundreds of millions of our Earthly brothers and sisters is depicted as evil. —–As for the rights of women, there are Muslim feminists, and some of them would point out that our government has often not done that which would have supported secularism and Islamic moderates, due to their incompatibility with imperialist machinations.—–Over-generalizations about Islam don’t help with building a global justice movement based in the universal ethic of love
From Andre Jose : “Tom, you need to re-watch the video. They debunk the “extreamist-only” argument you’re trying to start. Why is there Muslum violence in every corner of the globe? Bombings in london subway, train bombings in spain, attacks on embassies, bombing in the phillipines not to mention every country where Islam is the major religion and murders in france over, yes, a comic. Weren’t there death threats in sweden a few years ago over a cartoon? Don’t talk xians and hindu’s because that’s not the topic. That could be a long topic in itself but don’t tell me a rapist isn’t so bad because some other rapist did something worse. That’s so lame. Now Reza may have a point when it comes to cultures, not religion. I can’t respect a culture that treats women like property, won’t let them drive, won’t educate them, won’t let women vote, won’t let them leave the house without a male “escort” and forces women to be covered from head to toe because they can’t control their own boners. So you think the CIA is behind boko haram kidnapping schoolgirls and selling them as sex slaves? Muslim feminists are quickly caught and executed. Sugar coating it and hiding your head in the sand when it comes to pure evil won’t help with building a global justice movement based in the universal ethic of love.”
My response to Andre Jose is as follows.
Reza Aslan argued well against the notion that Islam is intrinsically violent or sexist, when compared to any other religion.— He argues for what you call the “extremist only” concept. —Aslan also gives examples of Buddhist extremist violence. It’s puzzling how you can say “don’t talk xians and hindus because that’s not the topic.” given that the question is whether Islam is an inherently violent religion. To answer that question, one might take a look at cultures where other religions are dominant. Doing that, one can see that during the past 14 years or so a particular Christian majority nation has tortured, mutilated and killed more people with its military than all the violent Islamic groups combined. —–And Christiandom, aka Western culture, has been genocidal and oppressive as much as, and likely more than other culture during the past few centuries. Is Christianity an inherently violent religion ? Why don’t we debate that on TV and Facebook ? —– You don’t want to make comparisons, how can we not, if we are to have an intelligent inquiry about the question of whether Islam is an inherently violent religion ? —-But as for Hinduism, you might want to read up a bit regarding the violence, sexism, homophobia, and religious intolerance on the part of Hindu extremists in India, and the homophobic intolerance that Christian fundamentalists have been stirring up in Uganda. — You’re probably familiar with the violence and cruelty based in Judaism, against the Palestinians, whereby many Israelis believe they are God’s chosen people and that God promised them the land they are on. —-“Don’t tell me that a rapist isn’t so bad because some other rapist did something worse.” Huh ? When did I say that Islamic extremists aren’t so bad, when compared to other extremists? You’re arguing against points I never made. There are better ways to engage in public discourse, vegan brother If I may humbly help: my point has been that the heinous acts of Islamic extremists (as well as the heinous, systemic sexism and homophobia that expresses itself thru some aspects of Islam) does not support the idea that Islam is inherently evil, anymore so than the heinous acts of Hindu, Buddhists or other extremists means that those religions are inherently evil. ——That’s an important difference. Please keep that in mind. —— “So you think the CIA is behind boko haram kidnapping schoolgirls and selling them as sex slaves?”—-I can’t be sure, but my guess would be no. However, some of the imperialist actions of the US and other Western governments have undermined secularism in Arab parts of the world, and (at least inadvertently) made it easier for Islamic extremists to recruit highly motivated fighters, if not also gain popular support for anti-secular approaches to governance such as Sharia Law.—- “I can’t respect a culture that treats women like property, won’t let them
drive, won’t educate them, won’t let women vote, won’t let them leave
the house without a male “escort” and forces women to be covered from
head to toe because they can’t control their own boners.” Yeah, that sort of treatment of women is a crime against humanity. But, again, as Aslan in the video, and others elsewhere have argued, those heinous injustices toward women don’t exist in every culture where Islam is the dominant religion. ——For example, Aslan says in the video that FMG (female genital mutilation ) is more prevalent per capita in one particular Christian majority country in Africa than it is in a particular Muslim majority nation in Africa. He also says that some Muslim majority countries have had more women heads of state than the US and other Christian majority countries.—–I plan to inquire into this further by reading some of the scholarship. You might want to as well, if you have the time and the interest. There is likely rigorous scholarship regarding Islam. Karen Armstrong is one of many authors regarding Islam. She’s a historian and a Catholic nun. —– Speaking out against religious bigotry and over-generalizations is not hiding my head in the sand, as far as I’m concerned.——Another question to consider is whether religion, in and of itself, not just Islam, somehow makes humans more violent and otherwise more cruel and less loving. That would be hard to answer. As for me, as recently as this past summer I thought that religion itself tended to make people less loving and more cruel, due to its tendency toward excessive certainty. But currently, I’m not sure. For some people, their Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist faith is a means to living with courageous compassion and love. I try to be open-minded about religion, even though I’m an atheist. For me, being vegan is an aspect of spirituality, based on the indisputable fact that we are dependent on nature and are inseparably part of nature. We are part of the Earth, as Thich Nhat Hanh says. —–One last question if I may. How do you define “pure evil”?
This might be worth a look. To each her own, but I generally prefer reading a scholarly book over watching a video. Thanks
Andre Jose said : “Muslim feminists are quickly caught and executed.” Maybe inquire into the writings and other works of some of the following Muslim feminists : Amina Wadud, Zainah Anwar, Shaheen Sardar Ali, Fatima Mernissi, Asma Barlas, Ziba Mir-Husseini and Shirin Ebadi. —- Maybe also take a look at Sisters In Islam. I hope this helps. 🙂 Sisters In Islam
Leave a Reply