Tensions between the conservationist and vegan communities ?

From Donna Brooks: ” Concerning individuals, you wrote: “But as for a hierarchy of animals, including humans, I suggest that ideally there would be no hierarchy, but in reality where there are at least some zero-sum situations, one might argue that the well-being of highly sentient animals, such as dolphins, pigs, or humans outweigh the well-being of apparently less sentient creatures such as some types of birds and rodents.” Using that criteria, I assume that you have no problem with people taking fish oil supplements for their health, since humans are much more sentient than fish. And honey should be fine, too, since we are more sentient than bees, and honey is better for the environment than sugar plantations. Plus, it’s a symbiotic relationship and the bees benefit from being cared for by the beekeeper. In fact, if there is, in reality, a demarcator b/t a higher and lower level of sentience, who gets to decide where the demarcation falls? I know plenty of vegans who go apeshit over someone eating eggs from chickens that people raise themselves and treat well or that are bought from a farmer whose farm someone has visited and inspected for themselves. Yet when it comes to the extermination of songbirds, it’s like, “Oh well! Too bad, so sad.”

My response to Donna Brooks : I buy and use honey. I’m not clear on why some or many vegans would be against that. You write, ” And honey should be fine, too, since we are more sentient than bees,
and honey is better for the environment than sugar plantations. Plus,
it’s a symbiotic relationship and the bees benefit from being cared for
by the beekeeper.” That’s been my understanding regarding honey, though I’d like to think I am open-minded about alternative views. Further, a case can be made for the symbiosis between humans and animals as it applies to small-scale ‘animal farming.’ —– There, again, I’d like to think I can keep an open mind, and at least attempt a thorough consideration of the pros and cons, both ecologically and in terms of individual humans and individual sentient non-human beings. ——. While we’re on this topic, it’s probably useful to consider the ideas of anarcho-primitivists and deep ecologists who argue that human beings have no right to impose our priorities on nature. They say we are not capable of being stewards. Personally, I don’t see how their views can be realized, other than thru human extinction. —–You wrote “I assume that you have no problem with people taking fish oil
supplements for their health, since humans are much more sentient than
fish.” Is there a zero-sum trade-off between human well-being and that of the fish as it pertains to fish oils ? For me, the rule is to strive to meet my needs, not my wants, in ways that do minimal harm and cause maximal well-being to others. —–I don’t think causing harm is intrinsically immoral. Instead, I think that causing unnecessary harm is wrong. —–So, concerning fish oils, it might be useful to inquire about the extent to which humans can thrive without the purported benefits of consuming fish oils.—-Donna, you also write ” I know plenty of vegans who go apeshit over someone eating eggs from
chickens that people raise themselves and treat well or that are bought
from a farmer whose farm someone has visited and inspected for
themselves. Yet when it comes to the extermination of songbirds, it’s
like, ‘Oh well! Too bad, so sad.’ ” —-You don’t read minds, but do these vegans seem to simply not care, or do they seem to care but not have a sense of what can be done about the ongoing destruction to birds and other wildlife ? —–For me, being vegan continues to make sense because it’s a relatively simple way to decrease demand for the products of industries that abuse animals, including humans, and damage water, and other parts of the ecosystem. —–What are the steps we can take regarding the destruction of wild-life ?

—-No offense, but you seem to have an ax to grind regarding vegans, as if we epitomize that which is destroying lifekind.

Thanks again, Donna Brooks, for making this a thorough thread. You write, ” In fact, if there is, in reality, a demarcator b/t a higher and lower
level of sentience, who gets to decide where the demarcation falls?” For better or worse, humans decide this. Again, deep ecologists and anarcho-primitivists probably would say humans have no capability or right to decide this. —–But the only option to such a role of responsibility for humankind that I can think of would be human extinction.—Plus, given the ecological impact of just the 7 billion of us living out our lives without any reproduction, one might argue that the best scenario for the rest of the life forms on the planet would be to end all human life as soon as possible. —–So, for me, the only viable option to organized anthropocide, is an organized attempt to create a type of human civilization that is not ecologically destructive. —–But it’s quite a challenge, and the words that you and I post here or the words of anyone else on Earth cannot capture the complexity. —–Though a reasonable case can be made that humans, and much of the other life forms on the planet are doomed, I myself don’t seem able to function day to day with that way of looking at things. —–I am not religious and express a belief in reason and science, but I have to admit that a lot of my ‘hope’ without which daily life might seem unbearable, seems, at least so far, unsupported by evidence.

It bears repeating. I appreciate your thoroughness, Donna. Come to think of it, it’s my sense of there being a lack of evidence for hope, combined with my sense that maybe I can find a deeper level of integrity, that has seemed to cause some of my alienation from people I used to work with at The Columbus Free Press, and WCRS FM 102.1/ 98.3. —-At various points in the past two years, I couldn’t help from feeling fake whenever I tried community media.—So, I’ve been trying to figure things out thru reading and a type of writing that some of my former peers regard as tangential obsession about ‘love.’ —But your questions, Donna help remind me I might be heading in the right direction.