As a vegan myself, I suspect it actually doesn’t help to assume the historical inevitability of our cause. —- We can work toward the type of future we’d like, but we don’t know what the future holds, or even if there will be a future with humans in it. —–Utopian ideas don’t actually help a cause. Calling the world we now live in, ‘pre-vegan’ is similar to how Marxists have assumed the eventual withering away of the state and the establishment of a classless society, or how Christians believe Christ will inevitably return to Earth.—–Assuming we foresee the future is a sort of religious mentality, with which we hold onto a vision without adequate evidence. So far, the evidence indicates human beings will live in a vegan world no time soon. I myself see veganism as a way to address ecological issues as well as improve our relationships with nonhumans. But neither peak oil, climate change, water scarcity, nor other issues necessarily indicate a vegan future. In fact, peak oil might in some, if not many cases, result in humans using our nonhuman brothers and sisters as beasts of burden. —- As for the Gandhi quote, activists have a habit of quoting famous people. But those quotes aren’t scientific statements subject to being disproved, however inspirational they might be to some of us.—- Gandhi’s formulation of being laughed at, attacked and then victorious is subject to dispute.
As for Utopian visions, King did great work, but his dream is far from a reality, in terms of the persistence of racism as indicated by police brutality and the prison-industrial complex; and the persistence of poverty and increasing inequality. ——Gandhi’s vision of non-violent struggle captured hearts and minds, but the work of violent freedom fighters in India were a factor to India’s independence from Britain. —-After independence, there was mass violence during the partition. To this day, extreme inequality and oppression based on caste and gender persist in India.—-Does it mean we shouldn’t work for a better world ? No. But for whatever my opinion might be worth, we don’t improve our effectiveness with Utopian visions. —–The propensity for violence and exploitation (human-on-human as well as human-on-nonhuman) is unfortunately part of our nature. —We can better manage the bad parts of our nature thru improving our social systems and our philosophical and scientific understanding. But my guess would be humans are not likely to eliminate–thru activism or other means—-our violent nature that seems hard-wired into us thru millions of years of evolution.
Some anarcho-primivists believe human-on-human exploitation derived from human-on-non-human exploitation. That claim is an ideological article of faith, which has yet to be proven scientifically (it would be impossible to prove historiographically)
I prefer to work with others to put love and compassion into practice, interpersonally and systemically, without assuming I know what will be, five, 50, or 500 years from now.
(From Eriyah) “Those descriptors I used didn’t necessarily come from you, they are just from similar, well meaning people like you who, “aren’t here to suck up to me” and are “just keeping it real” as some people (other than you) also like to say. I have a dream, and dreams can inspire people, and unite people, to make some real change, and I have every intention of seeing significant change in my lifetime. The beauty of social change is that each person has the opportunity to approach their advocacy/activism in a way in which they resonate most Keep doing what you are doing. My friend, Lori Jones, keeps a quote on her email signature that says, “be yourself, the world will adjust.” I like that. It inspires me. I’m sure what you have said here will inspire others who resonate with your more pragmatic and realistic grounding.”
I agree, Eriyah. Ideals are important reference points. You remind me to be careful about distinguishing (1) being realistic, on the one hand; from, on the other hand, (2) being unimaginative and defeatist. —–If you and other fellow vegans were to say “the world doesn’t have to be this way, we can thrive without exploiting animals,” I would qualify my agreement by suggesting that the human struggle against the evil that is within all of us, including you and me, is never ending. —-We never achieve Utopia, or to speak in theological terms, we never get to heaven. — Charles Atkins, a friend who is studying theology at Ohio Dominican and who works at the Clintonville Community Market refers to Albert Camus’ essay The Myth of Sisyphus, regarding the absurdity of existence. But I would suggest existence is not absurd. There is meaning to life, but it’s not handed to us by a supreme being. Instead we create meaning for ourselves and for one another. I find purpose in life by joyfully striving to reduce suffering and promote well-being. —-Being vegan, to me, is obviously a key part of doing that. Yet, the vast majority of my fellow humans don’t seem inclined to being vegan. Why is that ?
From Lori Jones: “Wow, the “historical inevitability of our cause”? Nothing worth anything is easy. We improve our effectiveness in reaching goals when we begin with a vision, whether you call that Utopian or otherwise. Visions are useful, necessary even, to begin to create goals to make that vision a reality. That vision is your inspiration. It is what keeps you going against that “historical inevitability” that others might see. The person with a vision knows in their heart that this new reality can be otherwise. To some it’s a head in the cloud vision. But to other’s, its something that can be done. I am so thankful for those that see things as doable. (love your youtube post, Eriyah Flynn) The crazy ones. Thank God for those people. Or else we would always have the status quo. Woman would still be expected to work at home, alongside their slaves, hospitals would be full of people locked up with the mentally ill and transgendered people, and gay people would be hiding in shame. I for one am inspired by many people, whether or not they changed the world, they have changed me. So therefore, they are effective. Ghandi inspired Benazir Bhutto, who inspired Malala Yousafzai, who at 17, fights for the rights of young women in Pakistan to get a free education. Ghandi’s inspiration was multi-faceted and continues to be inspirational. Utopian visions, maybe. I think a vision of a world that treats animals humanely and doesn’t feed on their bodies is a fair one. It’s a just vision. Worth fighting for. Every time I see a video of a circus elephant beaten, or a dolphin bay filled with blood, reminds me. Count me in on this fight. This utopian vision of a world without all of that incredible violence. I’m grateful for the Sam simon, PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), Eriyah Flynn’s, Jerneja Caserta’s, Portia Yiamouyiannis’ of this world. I think if we see this as a win, it could be a win. if we envision this as a possibility, it could be a possibility. If we see ourselves as failing, we will fail. So I choose to see this as a win. It might not be my lifetime, but we are planting the seeds.”
Lori Jones, the term “historical inevitability” was in reference to the belief that one’s cause is guaranteed to succeed.—– And when we use phrases such as ” pre-vegan world” that implies the belief that the entirety of humanity will at some point be vegan. —-Maybe you and Eriyah can foretell the future. But a mere mortal such as myself cannot. I’ve had these conversations before, where someone working on a cause construes skepticism as a lack of dedication. In my mind at least, we can work harder toward the goal, when we don’t take for granted that our cause will inevitably succeed. It takes courage to move forward with uncertainty. —— Do we make leaps of faith in order to realize our potential to work for a better world ? —– What’s wrong with working here and now according to our moral principles without assuming to foretell the future? —— Come to think of it, it’s arguable that if we believe in the inevitability of our success, we’re more prone to complacency. ——- I’m not disputing the achievements of Gandhi or other visionaries. And I’m not arguing against the value of having a vision or ideals, as already stated in my previous post. —–As for the video about the “crazy ones”, I hope that no one here is self-aggrandizing enough to claim that being an uber-optimistic vegan activist equals visionary genius.—–But maybe the vegan movement needs collaboration among millions of people more so than it needs the leadership of a few visionary geniuses.
From Lori Jones : ” Tom, Certainly, none of us have the talents of fortune telling. But there has been certain scientific forecasting that has said that this planet will not be able to sustain a meat eating population and we will be forced by the lack of available resources to only be able to offer the worlds population a plant based diet by a certain date in the future. It’s been talked about in several documentaries, Cowspiracy for one. I don’t know if that is the context in which “pre-vegan” is being used or not. As for being optimistic, I don’t think that is the same as being complacent. I think it keeps one on a trajectory towards success, believing that the goals are achievable. If I don’t think I can do it, I’m not going to try as hard. If I think I can get there, I’m going to push myself a little harder. It’s a state of mind. The video on you tube, The “Crazy ones”, it’s just a reminder, to not feel defeated. I don’t think anyone here, I can only speak for myself, but I think that how I relate and feel inspired is, that there are times when it feels like it is all uphill. It’s a great reminder when you see those that are visionary geniuses, that fought arduous battles, were the minority often, fighting for issues of social justice that the majority of society wouldn’t pay attention to for a very long time. And people thought they were crazy and didn’t listen. It’s just a reminder that you have to be on this side of society, a voice that gets little attention, And you have to keep going. Keep talking, keep wearing the shirts, signing petitions, educating peers, colleagues, etc. Sponsoring events, trying to make changes in church, community, at your grocery store, write to the paper, to your magazine editor, your Congressman, go out and vote, and so on. You keep doing what you do and when some new opportunity comes along, you do that too. And when you start to feel a little complacent, you stop scrolling pass the violence in your newsfeed and you watch and get angry again. At least that’s what I do. It feels pretty simple. It works for me. And I do think that the scientist are right. We are going to be a vegan society. Because we are either so smart we are going to pay attention to what’s happening to everything, and we are going to make changes. Or we are so idiotic, we aren’t, and the earth will force us to.”
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