***Like many of the other posts on this blog, there is an absence of interacting with people.
(1) To what extent are we erring to think hierarchically so as to rank lifekind vs the planet ? ——–(2) How can we think of human or nonhuman well-being removed from our concern for Earth ? We, as well as our nonhuman brothers and sisters are part of the Earth, and the universe, every molecule and atom in our bodies. ——- (3)Aren’t there many ways in which there is NOT a zero-sum scenario between human survival and well-being, on the one hand; and, on the other hand, the well-being and survival of non-humans ? For example, many vegans, including me, believe that building a human civilization that is no longer based in speciesism may increase human prospects for long-term survival and quality of life. (To preach to the choir) , improving the lives of nonhumans in many respects improves human lives, now and in the future. —— Sure, human population is a problem, but it’s reasonable to inquire as to (4) whether the key problem, ecologically, is not our efforts to meet human needs, but our efforts to satisfy our extravagant wants. (5) To what extent do you think and/or feel that striving to live in harmony with each other as humans, and with nonhumans is a type of morality that may development in the centuries ahead into a type of spirituality that unites humanity (in contrast to much of theology which divides us); and a type of spirituality that is congruent with science (in contrast to at least some aspects of past and current theology which clashes with science) ?
(Most recent updates are posted to the top of this page)
Nov 7, 2014 —- Michael Tawd made a point worth considering regarding vegans finding common-ground with non-vegans. He said he’s willing to work with non-vegans on many issues, from the fight against mountain top removal mining to the fight against fracking, the fights against racism and sexism, and so on. —–He said he’s willing to do that because, unlike the ‘humane slaughter’ movement, those other causes are not based on misinformation. “I have a problem with so-called ‘humanely raised meat, eggs, and milk’ because it’s a lie,” he said. —- Like Eriyah Flynn, Tawd said many vegans are already engaged in the type of multi-issue collaboration with non-vegans I’ve suggested on this thread. —-But maybe a question that remains is how far some of us are willing to work with the ‘humane slaughter’ crowd to improve living conditions for those enslaved individuals we cannot prevent from being killed. Can we be honest and open about our view that humanely raised animal products are either a lie or a delusion, while engaging that ideological ilk to pragmatically improve the lives of enslaved individuals ?
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The vegan vision is transformative, though I don’t assume its realization to be inevitable. I remain skeptical about whether veganism is viable in all circumstances, but the scientific and moral case seems strong for most people to be vegan in most circumstances. —All due respect, for whatever my opinion might be worth, I’m also skeptical about the claim that we should give equal moral consideration to non-humans and humans. –Some bias in favor of our own species might be inescapable, similar to our biases among one another as humans. But I’ll do my best to keep an open mind, Eriyah. Whichever is the case regarding our capacity for trans-species empathy and compassion, it’s clear to me that we should strive to meet our needs (as distinguished from our wants) with as little harm and as much benefit as possible to fellow earthlings. — I’m not sure what it means to say that humans and non-humans are ‘equal’ but I’m progressing in my understanding of what constitutes causing unnecessary harm.
I’d suggest inflicting physical and psychological pain on non-humans is still immoral if we have viable alternatives. An ethic of using every part of the non-human individual does not , by itself , justify the harm, in my opinion
From Troy Seman: “No I don’t think it’s right to willingly raise and kill animals for food or whatever else when you have other options. Herders in Afghanistan probably have little other option. But we have options.”
Thanks Troy, for the point about Afghan herders. You help here with our recognition of complexity. On the one hand, vegan absolutism would be out-of-touch with the realities humans face in some parts of the world. —But on the other hand, we can go too far with our notions of cultural relativism. For example, I’d suggest respecting cultural integrity shouldn’t get in the way of stopping the practice of female genital mutilation. Similarly, it shouldn’t prevent us from working on improving the lives of non-humans in the Global South. — But as vegans, I suggest we recognize our complicity in classism, racism, and neo-colonialism. —Identity politics and niche activism, vegan or otherwise, divides and conquers us, preventing us from building strength in numbers. —No one can be conversant in the details of every ‘life-kind’ rights issue. But we can be mindful of the core principles connecting all worthy causes: compassion, empathy, and love. — But, the vast majority of vegans I’ve encountered don’t seek to ‘impose’ veganism on the Global South. Coercion against people in the Global South mostly comes from the collusion of governments and multi-national corporations —I’d suggest food related activism as it pertains to the Global Justice Movement shows the need (please consider this further Eriyah as well as others posting here) for common cause between vegans and non-vegan proponents of ‘slow’ , local, organic, and non-gmo food . — There is a time and place for radical ( root) vegan activism. But there is also a need for vegans to build common ground with non-vegans who are working in the slow, local, organic, and GMO-free food and fair trade movements. Ending factory farming is an area for such common ground in the comprehensive struggle against the corporate-governmental abuses of power.
From Troy Thomas Seman : “I think we can expect, in our lifetime, the end of factory farming. But it’s going to be an enormous political, legal and educational campaign.
I think situations like the over proliferation of deer in North East Ohio demand a solution where as right now we have “animal lovers” thag won’t let anyone cull the herds but at the same time won’t pony up the funds to contol the population without killing the deer. Absent are natural predators and natural predators are far less humane in theur killing of prey than a trained hunter.
But that’s just an example of the complexity of our relationship with animals on this planet. It’s a compldx one and not everyone who decides on most vegan ideals even has the emotional and empathic landscape to support ALL vegan values. The world will always be this way. Some people will only be able to intellectualize some of the vegan ethic. They will forever feel “forced”. The feeling part of it won’t happen for them. That’s where laws and enforcement come in.”
In Demon Haunted World, Carl Sagan extolled skepticism and wonder. I’d suggest adding empathy, compassion, and love as ingredients for achieving a better grasp of eco-reality. — As big-brained creatures, we humans can do a better job of reducing suffering and promoting well-being when we use skepticism for evidence-based applications of our values.— In my mind at least, your point about deer, Troy, speaks to that . Regarding an earlier discussion about utopianism, I’ll keep an open mind, but maybe it’s better to work on improving the imperfect world that actually exists than to hope for a world that is not likely to ever be.
From Troy Thomas Seman : “Our ideals probably never will be. My point is not to push people so hard on YOUR ideal that they give up before theg ever try. Also don’t damn someone because they agree witb only 90% of your ideals otherwise gou get none of your ideals manifested. Reality is never 100%.”
From Eriyah Flynn : ” Tom, I realize you don’t follow me everywhere I go, or read every post I make (thank gawd, as I don’t want you to) and you seem to notice that I post on a large variety of world issues that are all foundationally connected with the human egocentric perspective as opposed to the global ecoperspective humanity needs to make if we really want to transcend another millennium on this planet, and vegans- in spite of our small numbers- manage to still pervade a large majority of the other causes you are suggesting we connect with, and at least this vegan (speaking for myself- people don’t call me Ubiquita for nothing because I am rather good at spreading myself across many fronts from environmental, human rights- be it LGBTQI to children, to feminine, disabled, or elderly etc.- issues, to sex trafficking to Healthcare to animals etc. to war crimes, to political sellouts and manipulations with ALEC and and other coprocracy tactics, and so I am incredulous as to why it must be us that must be the collaborators as you are asking me and other vegans to do, as if I and the many other vegans have not already been doing exactly that before I/(we in many cases as I am pretty certain I’m not the only one who has) was even vegan. Frankly, think I need a break from your constant need to be the self-appointed Eriyah’s public spelling critic, personal self-aggrandizing grounding agent (which that remark was so offensive if I had more time at the time I read it, I would have likely resulted in something similar to Lori’s response to you in that conversation but I am damn close to blocking you as I’m finding myself wasting effective thought time coping with aggravation from people sapping my energy) and wholistic movement consciousness connector consultant. Please take another break from interacting with me Tom, I am feeling suffocated and annoyed by this dynamic that has repeatedly tainted our interactions for quite some time. As I have consistently affirmed, you have a lot of great ideas, great intentions, and we have even had some great conversations where I have felt we covered a lot of ground on important issues for synergistic goals. There is something toxic here for me with you and I need to just close that book and keep moving forward. My apparent gaps from your perspective seem like the perfect place for you to take vegan advocacy to the next level. Please go develop the network you need to do that without me. I wish you every success. Thank you.”
Eriyah Flynn, though I could disagree with a few details, you make several good points in your long post above, especially the following : “My apparent gaps from your perspective seem like the perfect place for you to take vegan advocacy to the next level.” —- Thanks, for suggesting I follow thru with pursuing common ground with ‘conscious omnivores’ regarding at least improving conditions for enslaved individuals we likely can’t prevent from being slaughtered for food. —-One can forge such common ground while still collaborating with those who are working on abolition. Why must it be either/or ? It isn’t, unless abolitionists refuse to work with someone who works with ‘conscious omnivores.’—- I venture you, Eriyah, are not an either/or type of activist, regarding this, given what you say about folk calling you Ubiquita. The majority of folk involved with those other causes are not even ‘conscious omnivores’, let alone vegans. —–That’s why I suspect that those vegans who dismiss working with ‘conscious omnivores’ or those vegans who condemn Whole Foods, must be focusing on vegan advocacy in a narrow way, and not engaging with folk working on other causes. —–Whole Foods, for example, though not perfect, is doing things better than other food retailers on a variety of fronts. —–That’s why I would say love is key for maintaining a clear, in-depth, and broad strategy. Without love as one’s ethic, maybe we bog down in niche advocacy where we subconsciously are motivated more by the desire to be right and have that superiority of knowledge over others than our genuine desire to reduce suffering and promote well-being on Earth. —-As for collaborating with ‘conscious omnivores’, there is a belief common among abolitionists that we somehow defeat the cause of liberation if we are anything less than intensely condemning and confrontational toward the ‘conscious omnivores’ within the local and organic food movements.—-What is the evidence upon which faith in that either/or approach is based ? —- Maybe that type of all-or-nothing mentality doesn’t help the enslaved individuals.——Well, anyway, as for your encouragement regarding taking “vegan advocacy to the next level,” thanks but I don’t think of it as ‘vegan advocacy’ per se. It’s advocacy for love, empathy, and compassion. — But, of course, the connection between that and addressing the problem of inflicting unnecessary suffering on animals, including humans, is obvious. —-But with community engagement framed in terms of love, compassion, and empathy, each person conceptualizes and applies what that means according to her or his own lights. —–I try not to assume this approach works for everyone, but it’s my way of addressing the problem of my own jargon-filled self-righteousness and egotism.
Please understand, Eriyah, I’m sharing this with you because, like you say, folk call you Ubiquita, given that you’ve been working on a variety of causes that pertain to justice–whether immediate or transgenerational regarding ecology. —–I suggest it’s useful to distinguish being a radical from being a fanatic. The former builds strategic alliances in order to address the root issues. The latter fixates on a few particular details of a cause at the expense of helping with systemic change. —–Regarding systemic change, we are more likely to achieve it thru common ground that includes non-vegan local and organic food proponents. We have a shared concern about the concentration of political and economic power that, thru industrial capitalism, detracts from the well-being and prospects of survival for many individuals of many species. —–You have influence in your vegan outreach, Eriyah. Please consider, if you haven’t already, telling people we, as vegans, can do both at the same time : build abolitionist alliances while building alliances with welfarists. —Without that approach, some vegans seem prone to limiting ourselves to a consumerist approach to activism. Such an approach does not address the concentration of political and economic power which is a key part of what makes our food system problematic. In fact, big corporations have capitalized on vegans as a niche market.
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